Is there really an upper MG category?

[L. A. Steven]

Hi, I'm pretty new to the site, but I thought I'd ask a question that I've had for some time.  I sometimes read (on this site and others) people commenting that their WIP is an upper MG novel, but I was wondering if there really is such a category from the perspective of potential agents and editors. Would they see such a description as a valid characterization or rather as the author not really knowing what their book is?

If you think there is such a category, what distinguishes it from MG and YA?  What would the general age groups be for MG, Upper MG and YA?  Can you suggest any examples of an upper MG novel?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Catherine Stine]

I believe there is, though it's not officially written in the cover page or anything like that. Younger MG might be like How to Train Your Dragon. Upper, are the novels that reach 300 pages or are more complicated in terms of theme and plot. None come to mind right now, sorry. The cut off between YA and any kind of MG is sex. No sex or even kissing in MG. You can have the kids having crushes but it is not the focus. MG is more about school, friend issues, adventure and so on. I think the reason there are two sort of categories, is that kids in that age bracket have such a huge range in reading levels and interests.

[C. Lee McKenzie]

I agree with Catherine, and there are discussions in Middle Grade Lair that address this question. You might take a look at what we've shared. BTW, glad you're here.

[Jessica B. Wisniewski]

L.A.-

As a teacher, I'm faced with this question a lot in choosing books for my classroom library. I think, honestly, that there is a continuously growing "gray area" between the two genres. In my humble opinion, I think the reasons for that are two-fold:

1) At the middle-grade age range, you have a hugely diverse range of interests and maturity levels that change rapidly throughout the year. Students in my sixth grade class often start the year reading "Little House on the Prairie", by Christmas are reading "Freak the Mighty", and by the end of the year, they're devouring "The Hunger Games" Some of them start with "The Hunger Games" and end the year reading "Nick & Nora's Infinite Playlist" or even adult fiction. They're striving earlier to get to more mature content, based on the idea of "reading up" (5th graders don't really want to read about 5th graders, they want to read about 7th graders, 8th graders want to read about high schoolers, etc.) They're looking for stepping-stones as their tastes change.

2) Kids are reading more great fiction nowadays, and as they read more widely, their tastes tend to become more focused on genres of fiction rather than "appropriate age range". If a kid can't find a good first-person book about sports in MG, they'll look in YA - which can be a problem for parents and kids who might find YA is trending toward more mature themes, so there's an open door for MG fiction that skims the surface of a few of those more mature ideas, but not so much the graphic nature of the violence or explicit delving into contreversial areas like YA. The lines were blurred by the market demand, in my opinion.

I teach Honors Language Arts in the Sixth Grade, and you have kids who are looking forward to reading more challenging material, without the explicit (I use that word loosely to mean a deeper exploration of more mature themes) nature of many YA books. So, I will often recommend books that I feel fall into this UMG gray area to those kids, who will often be open to the new authors and themes within a genre they love, but without the "squirmy-because-it-feels-too-old-for-me" feeling.

I hope that made sense.

Jess

[Catherine Stine]

Great post, Jess! You explained it so well.

Jessica B. Wisniewski said:

L.A.-

As a teacher, I'm faced with this question a lot in choosing books for my classroom library. I think, honestly, that there is a continuously growing "gray area" between the two genres. In my humble opinion, I think the reasons for that are two-fold:

1) At the middle-grade age range, you have a hugely diverse range of interests and maturity levels that change rapidly throughout the year. Students in my sixth grade class often start the year reading "Little House on the Prairie", by Christmas are reading "Freak the Mighty", and by the end of the year, they're devouring "The Hunger Games" Some of them start with "The Hunger Games" and end the year reading "Nick & Nora's Infinite Playlist" or even adult fiction. They're striving earlier to get to more mature content, based on the idea of "reading up" (5th graders don't really want to read about 5th graders, they want to read about 7th graders, 8th graders want to read about high schoolers, etc.) They're looking for stepping-stones as their tastes change.

2) Kids are reading more great fiction nowadays, and as they read more widely, their tastes tend to become more focused on genres of fiction rather than "appropriate age range". If a kid can't find a good first-person book about sports in MG, they'll look in YA - which can be a problem for parents and kids who might find YA is trending toward more mature themes, so there's an open door for MG fiction that skims the surface of a few of those more mature ideas, but not so much the graphic nature of the violence or explicit delving into contreversial areas like YA. The lines were blurred by the market demand, in my opinion.

I teach Honors Language Arts in the Sixth Grade, and you have kids who are looking forward to reading more challenging material, without the explicit (I use that word loosely to mean a deeper exploration of more mature themes) nature of many YA books. So, I will often recommend books that I feel fall into this UMG gray area to those kids, who will often be open to the new authors and themes within a genre they love, but without the "squirmy-because-it-feels-too-old-for-me" feeling.

I hope that made sense.

Jess

[L. A. Steven]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I definitely agree that market demand blurs the distinctions and categories and that many middle graders (by age) can and do read up to YA and adult. I remember my own reading at that age! UMG thus does seem to be a valid category.

I'm curious, though. Marketing aside, would you consider Hunger Games UMG or YA? It doesn't have sex, the themes are somewhat dark but not beyond anything most MG boys see in their video games and the writing itself is intelligent but not overly complex.

Also, and this goes back to my original post, how do you think agents perceive queries that describe the work as UMG?

[C. Lee McKenzie]

That would be a great question to ask during an agent chat night. I've never used that term in a query because I haven't written what I'd consider an UMG book.

L. A. Steven said:

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I definitely agree that market demand blurs the distinctions and categories and that many middle graders (by age) can and do read up to YA and adult. I remember my own reading at that age! UMG thus does seem to be a valid category.

I'm curious, though. Marketing aside, would you consider Hunger Games UMG or YA? It doesn't have sex, the themes are somewhat dark but not beyond anything most MG boys see in their video games and the writing itself is intelligent but not overly complex.

Also, and this goes back to my original post, how do you think agents perceive queries that describe the work as UMG?

[Jessica B. Wisniewski]

"Marketing aside, would you consider Hunger Games UMG or YA? It doesn't have sex, the themes are somewhat dark but not beyond anything most MG boys see in their video games and the writing itself is intelligent but not overly complex"

Yes, I would consider Hunger Games UMG, only because of the violence. While I'll agree it's definitely not gratuitous, I have more than one sixth grader who was turned off of the story because of the violent content. Granted, it is certainly no more violent than most popular video games, but the MG genre tends to deal with those issues a lot less and in more "family-friendly" ways. Please understand that I'm just classifying it as I see it, rather than making any sort of judgment. (Personally, I'm a rabid Collins fan and book talk her books a lot!)

In my experience, whenever you're talking about Middle Grade, it's very kid-dependent. So, something that's appropriate for Brooke at 11 years old, might not be appropriate for Jamari, based on their level of maturity, cultural and familial background and upbringing, personal sensitivity. Anything that I would "recommend with caveats" about violence, language, or themes - but still recommend to an 11 year old, I would consider UMG.

Certainly, I'm only offering a layman's opinion in the matter, but if I were pressed to provide age groups (with overlap):

MG - 9-11
UMG - 11 - 14
YA - 13 - 18

A good example of a UMG novel might "Unwind" or "Duckling Ugly" by Neal Shusterman.

[Susan Kaye Quinn]

Great discussion! I'm a rabid Collins fan as well, but I put HG in YA because of the violence - or at least young teens (which is what I call ages 12-14, but it's not a universal term). But it sounds like your UMG age range is the same as my "young teens." In any event, I think that agents want to see MG or YA and not a parsing of hairs in a query letter - they should be able to tell from your query which end of those categories your story lies on - by the age of the protagonist and subject matter. In the end, they will market it as they see fit.

[Jared Bond]

For me, HG is in YA not because of the violence, but because of the romantic themes.  If you ignore the violence, it's a story about a girl torn between two love interests.  And then it's also a struggle against oppression, and other bigger-picture themes that I wouldn't expect in MG books.

 

As for upper MG - I would say you have MG books. Which are different from YA.  And *within* the MG genre, you could describe it as being lower or upper.  I wouldn't put age levels in (besides a general MG age range), because MG is all about varied reading levels within an age range.

[Anne Severn Williamson]

Terrific discussion everyone! I would place HG in the YA catagory. The tone seemed so mature, even brooding or bleak at times. I am writing in the Upper MG category and was just about to put that term in my query letter. Perhaps I shoud reconsider that detail. I believe Harry Potter is a great example of Upper MG. It is usually place in the MG section of most  libraries, but it obvioulsy reaches out to older readers. Thanks so much for addressing this issue!